Ok, this is my force made up of elves...

Theme: What If?

What if, as the Council of Elrond gathered in Rivendell, the Witch-King sent a portion of his forces of Angmar to intercept and slay the approaching leaders? What if Legolas were to stumble (graciously, as he is an elf:P) into the Witch-King's trap? Would Glorfindel and his Elven Company be able to reach Legolas in time to save the young Prince and help seal the fate of the whole of Middle Earth?

Army:

Glorfindel, Lord of the West w/ Asfaloth
20x High Elves Warriors w/ Heavy Armour, Spear, Shield
10x High Elf Warriors w/ Elf Bow, Spear

Legolas w/ Armour, Elven Cloak
18x Wood Elf Warriors w/ Wood Elf Spear
9x Wood Elf Warriors w/ Elf Bow, Wood Elf Spear

Points: 799
Warriors: 59
Bows: (10/30),(9/29) + Legolas
Might: 6
Will: 5*
Fate: 6

Deployment:

The High Elves with Spear and Shield will form the front rank of the Shieldwall, while the Wood Elves with WE Spear will form the second rank to support the High Elves. They will be lead by Glorfindel mainly. The remaining Elves will form a seperate Scouting group with Legolas leading them. The Wood Elves will be at the front of this as they have WE Spears and so can shield... The High Elves with bow will back them up, wih Legolas in their line to provide Heroic Shots and Moves. I intend to have the Archers crash into the flank of the enemy battleline (as I outnumber most armies slightly) and surround a portion of his/her force. Then I will lead Glorfindel to the opposite flank and start ripping up those poor warriors. The Fight 5 of my warriors should keep me a touch above and give me the edge. This, (I hope) in combination with the flanking moves will bring the enemy to its knees and hopefully break him swiftly.

I look froward to your Comments and Criticisms!

it's very fluffy but if it is a "rescue" then shouldn't Glorfindel's forces be mounted? You could use a modified profile of the Galadhrim kngihts.
Revome the Woodland creature for the horses and the 12" movement but instead have heavy armour on the riders and have options for bow, Shield or Elven Lance (Counts as a lance on horse back and a spear on foot)

I would but I am playing a 100% LoME legal list against my friend... He's fielding Haradrim with The Shadowlord and The Betrayer (both on Horse) He does, however have only one other hero and that's a Haradrim Taskmaster so he has no fighters and so I can capitalise on that by using high will heroes... Glorfindel in particular should be able to survive a heavy magic storm for atleast one turn as he has his armour. I am slightly more worried about Legolas though, but i hope to put him to good use before he can get anywhere near my lines! He does have slightly superior numbers (at 61 models) but as i said, I hope my higher fight and front line defense can win the day!

legolas is a ranged fighter so they shoudln't get too close....however Shadow will couse problems and i asume most of his army is horse back. If not then you should worry too much. It is a rare day when a Nazgul will charge on in on his own.
I must inform you that the legolas protion is illigal if it's a 100% legal army as everyone counts. This means you have a total of 10 bows for 28 warriors(Icluding legolas)

Oh dear! Having Legolas included in the bow limit as a problem!

Um... I will transfer one Wood Elf w/ Elf Bow and Wood Elf Spear to the Rivendell Contingent, changing it to a High Elf w/ Elf Bow and a Spear.

My opponent does have some cavalry in his army. He has 8x Serpent Riders. He is going to lead them with The Betrayer (Poisoned Weapons). I am guessing that the Shadowlord (along with the Taskmaster) will lead the remaining forces.

He says that he would also like to try out another list which contains:

Amdur
Dark Marshal w/ Horse
Easterling War Priest
Dalamyr
Dragon Knight (I believe)
20x Easterlings w/ Shields
20x Easterlings w/ Spear, Shield
8x Corsair Reavers

I am less concerned with this list as it has no cavalry or archery protection. However, I want to be vary weary with his heroes. He has five and he knows how to use them well.

well unless he moves the Shadow with the cavarly you'll kill them in seconds. You could add in a Mirkwood Sential and give him a named profile like Elrosse(My name in Elvish) to show that he is Legolas's Elite guard. This could solkve your bow problem by removing 2 wood elf bows and adding a Sentiel as his "Songs" could help counter some of there abiltys. He can cause terror for 1 turn making most evil men unable to touch him (and with 2 attacks and fight value of 5 he's probbaly going to win too), He can dirupt the enemy formtaion luring there powerful riders away from the Beytrayer and ready to get raped by elves or make Legolas or Glorifendel even more powerful by making them immune to courage tests for 1 turn or maybe him self to take on the nazgul hif he need too. He's a good sorce of alternate magic too.)And it's free to cast )

I see what you are saying about using a Wood Elf Sentinel. Certainly their abilities are many, but I just think that he is too fragile for his points value. I already dont like using unarmoured elves because of their relatively high cost. I just dont think they are worth it.

tho unarmoured he does have an elven clock to proctet him also cavalary can't charge him unless he's within 6" whihc means he will almost always get to charge them first. Also he's got 2 attacks so he's rather powerful in combat. But as you said he's fragile with most men needing a 4 to kill him and with only 1 wound he can be difficult to use.

You're fine on bow limit in your origional list as Legolas does not count toward it at all. 10/30 bows from Rivendell and 9/18 from Thranduils Halls - Glorfindel and Legolas are both Heroes and so do not count toward it.

On the case of Sentinels, yes they can be fragile but its all in the way you use them. Although they have low defence, they also have good combat stats which should keep them alive if they end up fighting (although for the mopst part you should be trying to keep them out of it) - the real threat is from bowfire. Making use of the elven cloak will help here but is little defence against a big volley. Obviously, if they connot be seen they cannot be volleyed at - but their comrades can be and so long as they are within 6" of a visible target they are at risk. If you want to use them you will need to think very carefully about how you deploy and move them in relation to your other forces to avoid loosing them before they can be used.

Usually I'd condone the use of Sentinels as they're one of my afvourit units, however, as your opponent is Harad - a horde army with average courage - you may find the Sentinel's abilities wasted against them and the points spent better on more models .

i'm sure that heros count to the bow limit as it would be 33% of the entire army. However i tryed looking in the rule book and couldn't even find the 33% bow limit rule (I suck i know). But i still quite sure on that but can someone double cheak and give the quote(And maybe page number)

Jaws, I thought it was the whole army too but artificialwinter corrected my; don't worry about not finding it (you don't suck) it's a big book . So *checks in ORB* it looks like it's on page 186 of ORB and if I may I will quote it under here.

Spoiler:

I'm checking the FAQ and Errata...
Looks like heroes do count per the 'each force's model' unless something else comes up.

LoME wrote:

You always have a Bow Limit of one third of the Warrior models in your army.

It continually mentions the title of Warriors, meaning the non-hero part of the force.
Therefore heroes count for model limit but have no impact on bow limit. So one third of your Warriors need bows, and heroes don't affect this limit by having a bow or raising model count.

So yes, you're fine with Legolas. Your list looks pretty good. Don't know I've got any particular suggestions. Only areas to fiddle with are personal preference like whether or not to take a banner (which is handy for Elves given the low numbers, formations and high fight value which means a re-roll goes a long way to domination) or whether to give your bowmen Elven Blades for some combat versatility, allowing you to hit the enemy hard as the situation demands (given that they can use them with a bow).

Ok! Over the weekend I met up with my good friend and had three battles with the aforementioned army. He had a total of 4 lists which he rolled a dice to determine which one to use. The three scenarios were Ill Met by Moonlight, Seize the Prize and To Kill a King.

First Battle: Ill Met By Moonlight
My mate was using Barad Dur army (not actually 100% sure). He had:

Dark Marshal
Tainted
Orc Drummer
Shagrat, War Leader of Cirith Ungol
Kardush
20x Morannon Orcs w/ Shield
18x Orc Warriors w/ Spear
10x Morannon Orcs w/ Shield, Spear

So 53 guys, 7 might.

The terrain that I placed was put where i could create choke points for the enemy. We rolled for board edges (and deployment) and he won so I was able to respond to where he placed his warriors. Basically I started out quite well by intimidating his initial 'skirmish force' (that has to be set up and the half way point of the board - it included The Tainted, 10x Morannon Orcs w/ Shield and 10x Morannon Orcs w/ Spear and Shield)with my 20x Elven Bows! He fled backwards into some ruins, but what he didn't count on was that i could just see the head of his Tainted with Legolas who was standing on a rocky mound... The shoot phase came about and guess what Legolas found his mark (obviously) and managed to wound The Tainted! (certainly with the help of the Scenario Rule: No shooting further than 12" but get +1 to wound) The Tainted was unable to save it with his single Fate point (rolling a one ) The dark creature withered and the now considerably less threatening-looking force got punished with my elven bows!

Second turn and his main reinforcement group was running up at an increadible pace! - Just inches away from my front ranks. Then the next big surprise arrives! - Legolas once again manages to pick out Kardush from the battleline and wound him too! Im sure you can guess what happens next! Kardush (or my mate) only manages to roll a two. So, with two heroes slain the Evil side was not looking good at all leading into combat.

I took over quickly with the only person doing much damage (4 elf warriors) being Shagrat. I won woithout too much fuss and a great intro battle for my first GT list with Legolas in it! Major Victory to the Elves. My 'Man of the Match' was obviously Legolas closely followed by the Archers.

Second Battle: Seize the Prize

My mate used an Easterling army this time and it included:

Amdur
Easterling War Priest
Dark Marshal
Dalamyr
20x Easterlings w/ Shield
20x Easterlings w/ Spear and Shield
8x Corsair Reavers

Warriors 52, Might 7.

So terrain was set up and I made sure that all of my pieces to place were put in a ring right around the objective. At the end of placement, there was not one point of entrance which wouldn't atleast impede and slow movement. This meant that my opponent would have to wander through an inch or two of difficult terrain to be able to reach the 'prize' no matter which way he went! This would also mean that I could race forward and secure the objective just a turn before he could, meaning that he would have to fight his way through to it!

I rushed forward - not stopping to shoot and managed to get into base contact with the object while his closest warrior was still 6.5" away! - If I could get the artifact out this turn then victory would almost certainly be mine! I didn't however and this meant that priority would decide who got to the objective within the next turn or two. He won, but I called a Heroic Move with Legolas and was countered by The Dark Marshal. I WON and pushed as many elves forward as i could, then I moved Legolas into contact with the counter in the hopes of freeing it later that turn... I DID and Legolas would be able to pick it up next turn and start the long run back to the board edge - Another great feat for The Prince of Mirkwood!

Next turn legolas spins around and runs for dear life... The elves hold up and manage to stop even Dalamyr and Amdur getting through! Legolas escapes off the board in the turn in which Glorfindel was slain by Amdur and his crew! Still however a major victory for the elves! Man of the Match goes this time to Legolas or perhaps even the High Elves w/ H. Armour and Shield.

Third Battle: To Kill A King

This battle was alot less intense. He used:

The Dark Marshal w/ Armoured Horse (Leader)
Black Guard Captain
Black Guard Drummer
Orc Drummer
Shade
21x Black Guard of Barad Dur
21x Morannon Orcs w/ Spear and Shield

Warriors 47, Might 4. So for this I chose Glorfindel to be my leader as he is better at such things than Legolas. He made his way down one board edge as i slowly manouvered all of my Elves to face him. His insane movement of 9" for all (but the Shade) was immense. I killed 6 Black Guard through archery over 3 turns and once the Dark Marshal was in view all attention was focused at him with my archers. In the first turn of shooting at the Dark Marshal, he suffered one wound which he avoided with his first fate. In the seciand turn legolas failed to hit him at all and the others barely amnaged to get a decent hit on him.

Then in the thrid turn the archers shot at him once more as the two battlelines came close to combat. The Elven Bows proved too accurate and powerful for the Dark Marshal as a wild shot hit his horse, threw him to the ground and as the Dark Marshal rolled a 1 for Fallen Rider he suffered a nother wound for falling to the ground so hard. This again was avoided with a point of Fate but the inevitable was about to happen as another 13 bowmen who had lined up their shots succesfully unleashed one final volley at The Dark Marshal which left him lying in the dust with three swan fletched arrows sticking out of his armour before his spirit disintegrated into dust. The Elves had won and killed 1/7 of the opposition for no one death! Clearly this was a Major Victory for the Elves. Man of the Match went to the Elven Archers fro they were the only ones to kill anyone.

So all in all, a great weekend of gaming for me and my new army! I thought that although my opponent got quite unlucky with some crucial Fate rolls, my tactics were solid and that having 20 Elf Bows can be very deadly indeed!

The only thing i would point out is that I think that Elves definitely need some heavy-hitters. I know that they can be equipped with Elven Blades but I would prefer Games Workshop to create official High Elf Knights which could be equipped with lances and shields. Then just sit back, and watch the bodies fly!

A great time and some awesome battles!

Wow, I couldn't help but feel some pity for your friend and dislike for the pointy-eared elvish princeling (please excuse my Dwarf talk ).

Wow (again), Legolas always manages to get himself killed when I use him but I guess I don't know how to use him yet.

I'm surprised that your opponent didn't switch to The Shadow Lord once he saw his army being torn apart by arrows.

Congratulations on your three (consecutive) victories! Sounds like the fruit of a seasoned captain

Cheers,

Rad

p.s. So do heroes count for bow-count? I mean, doesn't ORB over-rule LOME?

Cal585 wrote:

LoME wrote:

You always have a Bow Limit of one third of the Warrior models in your army.

It continually mentions the title of Warriors, meaning the non-hero part of the force.
Therefore heroes count for model limit but have no impact on bow limit. So one third of your Warriors need bows, and heroes don't affect this limit by having a bow or raising model count.

Well then what stops you from just fielding a all hero bow force? (Dundain for example)

Quote :

Well then what stops you from just fielding a all hero bow force? (Dundain for example)

Nothing but then, that's kind of the point. The fact that Heroes do not count toward the bow limit is what makes Outriders, Dunedain and Rangers of the North useful (although the Grey Company list doesn't actually have a bow limit anyways). This often leads to frustrating power-gaming (Gamling/Outrider combo) but that's just how it is unfortunately.

I supose the reasoning behind it is because SBG is a skirmish/scenario based game with a big division made between Heroes and Warriors - greater in past versions of the game but still there. The designers probably didn't want people being hindered in the make up of armies by characters armed with bows who are necissary to certain games.

I can't really explain it but the fact of the matter is that the bow limit is specific to Warriors; Heroes, whether equipped with a bow or not, do not count toward it.

well that sucks. I have always counted heros too. Dam it. I could have had a few more archers in my Lothlorien force.

Well if you've been counted Heroes you the bow-armed ones were probably more than balanced out by those without

And don't worry about it - its an easy mistake to make, one that I made for a long time. It's just one of those things.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with having an all-Dunedain force, however I just don't see the point. In an 800pt game you could fit a maximum 32 with spear. Now sure, it means that you will outshoot alot of (almost all) armies. However, once combat is joined they simply don't have the defense or strength to finish the job (D4, S3 if memory serves me right:D). I just don't think that they would do well. Alot of them would get surrounded and beaten (F4) then killed off. Also, their only way of getting rid of heavy-hitting heroes is by shooting them down. All that needs to happen is have someone deploy with his hero way at the back and there is almost no way that you will stop him. When it comes to courage tests when broken, unless you have brought Saruman along then there is almost no way that you will have your warriors stick around for long. - especially if there is a Nazgul about! Sure you have might, will and fate but having only one point of each won't always get you very far...

So that is why I think that a completely bow-armed, hero army is almost pointless.

Anyways... Thank you for your kind words Radagastbird. I really don't know why my mate didn't just chuck the Shadowlord into his armies for the Dark Marshal (or any other Nazgul for that matter!)... He did say though, that he was not looking to create an awesome, great, 'perfect' army but was instead looking to try out new things... For example, he wanted to see whether having a seperate force of Amdur, a War Priest and several Easterlings would be worth it. He found out that by casting Blade Wrath (or watever...) on Amdur and then calling a heroic combat meant that he could easily kill up to 4 or 5 D6 warriors each turn. - As long as you dont have Glorfindel on your back!

But yes. The battles were hard-fought (two of them atleast) and many brave elves and (not so brave) evil men fell in combat but I am very happy with the result!

I'm no GC expert but personally I think these their high-might, all bow armies can be very effective. I've never played GC myself but heres a list I rustled up quickly for 800pts

Arathorn
Halbarad
+Banner of Arwen Evenstar
10 Rangers of the North

30 Rangers of Arnor
+spears
10 Rangers of Arnor

52 models
52 shots
16 might (thats a total of 12 models able to call Heroic actions)

Now consider:
- You outshoot practically every army you will face, the only problem being that your bows are only S2 but really its going to take the Shadowlord to prevent you doing anything less than cripling damage at range.
- Once combat is joined you have a powerful combat Hero in Arathorn and the sturdy Halbarad as well as 10 S4, D5 RotN - with a solid backing of Fv4 RoA providing plenty of spear support. Hardly soft is it?
- Then once you're broken the BoAE will mean a large portion of your force will pass courage tests automatically - negating any concerns over RWs. But even disregading that 10 C5 Heroes with a point of will each (on top of your two main Heroes) is nothing to be sniffed at.

Problems - its slow, it'll be outnumbered in most cases and D4/5 leaves you vulnereable but really I think its strengths outweigh its weaknssse by a good margin.

AW

Thank you for defending the case of the Dunedain army, ArtificialWinter. I was going to point out some of their main strengths when you came and did it a lot better than I ever could have.
I would like to add that this force also has a perfect theme! Bringing the Banner of Arwen to Aragorn! Anyhow, I heartily agree with you,
Cheers
Rad

Glad someone agrees with me

Actually I screwed up a little on theme - but I supose you could always use 'count as' rules for either the BoAE or Arathorn.

Ooops, yeah, unless Arathorn didn't die at the time of the War of the Ring. Aren't the Elf boys as expensive as Arathorn? You could easily switch them for him if that's the case. You might even have some points to give them armor.

Actually the monkey-twins are twice as much and really you want to keep model count as high as possible. Unless there's another Elf Hero who costs a similar amount to Arathorn and fullfills the same role...but I can't remember

He's that cheap? I haven't seen his stats in centuries but I thought he'd be near Aragorn in effectiveness (eg. slaughtermachine that manages to keep your whole army together and not suffer a single enemy spell). Anyhow, it was just an example of the effectiveness of the Grey Company. No need to fine tune it, right?