These are the two main lists I'm looking at at the moment for the Build Me An Army Challenge. There's others I'd like to do, but aren't really realistic. Both these lists feature my Goblins, and I'm sticking to just 1000 points. I can only afford to buy what I'll use, so I'm creating a usable 1000 point list.


List One: Angmar
The Witch-King of Angmar (full power) on Dark Steed with Morgul Blade
2 Barrow Wights
Wild Warg Chieftan
6 Wild Wargs
2 Cave Trolls (both with Chains, one with spear)

Goblin King of Gundabad
Goblin Shaman
3 Goblin Prowlers
24 Goblins Warriors (8 of each)
Bat Swarm

Warlord of Carn Dum (Dunlendings) with 2H axe
9 Warriors of Carn Dum (3 Bows, 3 Shields, 3 2H Axes)
Banner of Carn Dum

Total: 999
Models: 53 (11 Bows)
M/W/F: 10/36/8

If I went with this list, I still need to buy the Warriors of Carn Dum, the Goblin Prowlers, the Wild Warg Chieftan and a mounted version of the Witch King.
I realise I'm a bit undermanned and probably spent too much on heroes. Does anyone have any suggestions on how to improve the list while still keeping the thematic and fun feel which is the main point of importance to me?



List Two: Misty Mountains
Dragon (Fly, Wyrmtongue?)
Goblin King
Goblin Shaman
6 Goblin Prowlers
Goblin Drum
43 Goblin Warriors (15 Shields, 14 Bows, 14 Spears)
Bat Swarm
2 Cave Trolls (Both with chains, one with spear)

Total: 1000
Models: 57
M/W/F: 7/8/6

If I went with this list, I'd need to buy the Dragon and the Prowlers. I have the rest.
This list is also low on numbers, especially for a Goblin list. It's to be expected when you've got a Dragon, but I'm sure adding 2 Trolls and a Drum into the mix doesn't help. However, I quite like this list. The dragon is obviously the biggest threat and toughest element (undecided on upgrades, but I like Wyrmtongue). The trolls provide a bit more muscle to back it up as well and combined with the Bat Swarm and Durburz's might can overcome just about anything. The thing I like about this list is that it compensates so well for the weakness of Goblin Courage. The drum gives me a base courage of 3 and that's just the fall back. Ideally the Shaman's Fury will mean Durburz will automatically hold the battle line with his Iron Fist, though failing that, his modified courage due to the drum should hold as well.
But maybe I should swap out something for some more Goblin Warriors. I quite like the list as it is, but it might struggle to fight properly with the Goblin Warriors at the higher levels... I don't know what I'd take out though. Trolls and Drums are just so iconic of Goblins for me and it's great having that bit of variation. Suggestions?


Currently, I'm leaning towards the Misty Mountains list. Which do you recommend?

i prefre the second list but with the Dragon there you will not really need 2 cave trolls. I rarely ever see more than 2 "creatures" fieled such as ents, Trolls, Mumaks etc. You could take out 1 Troll and add in another Goblin Shaman and you the "Drum Fury Tactic"
This is mainly used to get everyone to cast Fury and then combine it with Dubrtz's Iron fist rule to basicly get almot every goblin on the field to autopass all courage tests ever needed to make. However this "Tactic" is very difficult to maintain whihc is where the Drum comes in. This will make sure that Dubrtz can maintain the goblins even without help from Fury and alos cover Archers who are often not covered by the tactic. However Trolls, Wargs and Dragons etc are not effected by thi rule so keep a close eye on your Troll should you reach breaking point.

As for the first list i quite like it and is one of the few lsits that might benifit from Druzhag. However 2 Barrow Wriaths AND the Witchking(On Drugs) is a little over kill espicially if he has the crown of Morgul. other than that it's ok i would say and i like the idea of using the Armoured Dundiling warriors for warriors of Cardum. I think WD had a profile for some of them but i can't remmeber the issue (Somany people are using WD, Madeup and conffered and profile swaping for the comp so don't worry too much)

Hmm, yes I suppose I could remove one of the trolls. An additional shaman would be nice (though another purchase), but so is having the extra troll. There's just something about trolls bludgeoning through enemy warriors that sets the heart alight
Seeing as warriors are my main problem, I'd probably swap him out for more Goblins but I don't think I have many more... I do have some Wild Wargs that I would've liked to add in, but that requires a Chieftan which is by itself quite expensive.

Haha, yeah I suppose it is a bit overkill. I just like Barrow Wights (them representing the undead horros or Angmar) and I wanted to represent the WK at the height of his power and a true general. I do have an old WD with specific Angmar profiles including Revenants (they were cool!) and spectres and such. Their Carn Dum profiles are pretty similar to the Dunlendings though anyway. To me the Dunlendings fit Carn Dum better than Dunland, as Tolkien described the Dunlendings as without armour for the most part.

i agree that i love the Barrow Waiths. I had 3 in one battle and then Aragon, Gandalf and Legolas went to sleep at Sauron feet just before a mace went though there heads.

My personal preferance is Angmar, however I think your stronger list is the second one. Your Angmar list is way too low on numbers and doesn't have the option to volley, although you may be able to pull something out of the bag with the trolls and barow-wights. To improve this list you'd need to up your numbers considerablly, get enough bows to volley and find someway of increasing your chances in combat. I'm all in favour of dishing out for a bunch more prowlers (Fv 3 can work wonders for Goblins) - perhaps in exchange for the WoCD? Would be nice to see more sizeable contingent of Wargs as as it stands, they could easily be crippled in a single turn of shooting (think how many elf bows you acn get into 1000pts...), particularly as WK will be needing an escort... I find Shades are always great additions but their cost may make them unfeasible unless you drop a troll or something.

The Misty Mountain list looks stronger to me but I have a few suggestions. Firstly, you're still pretty low on numbers - although the Dragon and Trolls may be able to make up for that. Your goblin contingent is significanty bolsetered by the drum but I'd still push for a few more prowlers to give a greater edge in combat. It would also be nice to have a faster moving group as presently the majority of the list is giong 5" max - perhaps some spiders? In this list I'd be a little conserned with the amount of might you have, particularly with the number of bodies you're trying to controll - most 'Good' forces will be able to out-might you and dominate the mainstay of the fighting - trying to squeeze a goblin captain or two in might really turn the tide in your favour.

Good points there AW, but for everything I want to add I need to pull something out. But these lists are just initial thoughts. They're kind of what I'd want and now I need to edit them and make them effective, hence asking for other opinions on what to change.
I've taken the advice to remove the second Cave Troll. This gives me the points to boost my Goblin contingement up to 60 warriors. The extra warriors should be helpful, even if they're just used to hold the enemy in place for the dragon. I could remove some for a Captain, but I'm thinking numbers would be most helpful in this situation. Likewise I'd like to get something fast moving like Spiders or Wargs, but I'd need a significant amount to make them effective and then they're not affected by the drum or fury, so thinking goblins will be better.
Anyone got much experience with Dragon upgrades? I'm liking fly for the sheer versatility, which allows it to get behind the enemy lines and attack from the rear, which would certainly help my slow goblins. Wyrmtongue is chosen partly because it's my favourite idea from a background perspective and because I don't have any serious spell casters and I figure this would allow him to take on enemy heroes as needed. Breathe Fire is a bit overused, so I'm overlooking that at the minute, but Tough Hide is something I'm really considering, more so for the defence increase than the wounds, which would be quite useful if thrown into the enemy by himself.

I'm going to have another look over the Angmar list tomorrow and see if I can't make it somewhat competative, though I'll probably build the Goblin one at this stage.

Looks like some good adjustments. I'd still lean towards adding a Goblin Captain - perhaps dropping the bat swarm if you're woried about lowering your numbers too much - as they're a great source of cheap might and at only 7 for the entire 1000pt force I think you might struggle. I'd also sugest taking some more Prowlers for that ever important Fv3, and because their special rule is great in combination with high numbers of normal Warriors.

As for the Dragon, Fly seems the obvious choice as a 12" movement would certainly help to counter the fact that the rest of your army is relatively slow. I'm not a big fan of Wyrmtongue but if you think you can make the most of it then by all means go for it. Personally, I'd choose Tough Hide - raising your defense to 9 (?) makes you practically imune to anything below S4, and even that is much of a threat.

Personally I like the Bat Swarm not just for the character but it's extremely useful for destroying enemy heroes. I could take out 8 Goblin Warriors in exchange for the captain... but I'm unconvinced, as I'm already fairly low with the numbers with the Dragon. I'm kinda counting on the Dragon to take out enemy heroes. Goblin Prowlers aren't so important, as I'm expecting my main opponent will be elves which neglects the higher fight anyway. I am concerned about the elven bows though, hence why I'm undecided on the Dragon upgrades. Fly is useful in getting to the weak points of the enemy formation. Wyrmtongue allows me to deal with the enemy heroes, something I really need. However, Tough Hide doubles my survivability against Elven Bows so I dunno...

Also been looking a little at the Angmar list. I figure I can remove a Barrow Wight and Cave Troll to add 24 Orc Warriors. It gives the list some more numbers (an extra 22) and I don't think I'll particularly miss the Wight. Still a little concerned about having only 1 Cave troll though, it being my main hard hitter.

If your confident that the Dragon will be able to make up for disadvantage might-wise then ok - although I'd still be cautious as most Good armies will be fielding at least 10 might, often more. Playing against elves, the number of prowelrs you currently have will probably suffice to take advantage of their Backstabber special rule - as you say adding more really isn't necissary against Fv5. As for the Dragon, seeing as you're quite a lot of faith (and points) behind it I'd stick with the security offered by Tough Hide...The Dragon alone is enough to play the role of Hero-killer without adding Wyrmtongue in my opinion.

Hmmm...instead of dropping the second troll you could drop your Carn Dum contingent. I'm not sure how many points they collectively come to but any additional points could be used to increase the size of your Warg contingent which at the moment I think is far too small.

Yes I agree with you on the dragon, though I am worried about someone like Gil-Galad or Elrond or Glorfindel or someone strong that has the potential to damage him. I suppose the only thing to do is test it out as it's the same points anyway.

What do you have against the Carn Dum contingment? They're one point more than an Orc Warriors with a better shoot value and better courage. Mind you I'm thinking it could be easier not to buy all the metals. And the wargs I'm not really fussed about. They don't even count as cavalry, the only bonus they provide is some fast movement to the flanks. And if the enemy decides to target them heavily, then I can get my main part to their lines easier. The WK isn't mounted to act in traditional cavalry style. He's partly moutned for the aesthetics of it. It also provides mobility and a platform for his spellcasting. Also allows him to keep out of combat until the right time. And then finally if he does transfix something, he can charge in himself if he needs to. Of course, I'm expecting his mount to be targetted a bit, but if I keep it covered I should be able to waste most of his fire, particularly as the WK himself is pretty invulnerable to arrows.

Quote :

What do you have against the Carn Dum contingment?

I agree with much of what you've pointed out about them but my concern is that they drastically limit your potential bow-fire; firstly because you have to ally in an entirely new contingent when your main one isn't up to max bow-limit, and secondly, because they do not carry the same bows as your goblins they cannot contribute to a volley. Don't get me wrong, I love the theme and I think variety in forces is great - but speaking from a purely tactical point of view I think their points could be beter spent elswhere.

Quote :

The WK isn't mounted to act in traditional cavalry style

I didn't assume that he would be, however, considering that putting him on a horse makes him a more vulnerable target I would still advice providing him with a retinue of cavalry models. This needn't be particularly large or expensive as I'd see their primary role as simply blocking LOS/providing ITW rolls/preventing charges - however they could also be used offensively for example by swamping Transfixed models to save the WK getting his hands dirty.

I recommend the second list, but I would lose the Drum. Because you have both Durburz and the Shaman, you have the ability to keep about a half to 2/3 of the board (assuming it's the standard 4x4 foot board) from fleeing due to failed Courage rolls, so the +1 Courage is a bit redundant.

Instead of the Drum, I would take some Wild Wargs or Giant Spiders...a Moria army is a very slow moving army, and both of those choices will bring the attack to your enemy twice as fast, cauring him to focus on the Wargs or Spiders currently attacking him and turn a blind ee to what your Goblins are doing.

I would keep the two Trolls and keep the Goblins clustered pretty close together, and NEVER let any Goblin be unsupported by another. Keep those archers in the back and start volley firing from Turn 1.

Hopefully that was of some help to ya

Fenrir

Thanks for the replies and sorry it's taken so long.
Damn, just wrote out a long reply and lost it all

The Carn Dum contingement is my favourite part of the Angmar force, just because it's not something everyone does. If the Dunlending models weren't such a nice fit to my mental image I'd give in and make a list based on the Warriors of Carn Dum using the AotD plastics. The option is still highly tempting.
Anyway, I don't believe the bows hurt that much. Particularly as it's only 3. I still have the numbers to volley (with the replacement 24 Orcs). Granted, if I take a few casualties then I won't be able to, but volleying only generally works for the first turn or two before the range is too close, after which the better shoot value actually helps.
And the problem with cavalry is that you have to go big or go home. Adding in say 6 Warg Riders (forgetting the problems of allying them) is almost a worse situation, as it's enough of a threat to attract attention but not enough to protect the WK. Then if I go more, I'd want a might hero to help dictate the charges, which is not a position I want the WK in. And suddenly I've got a major cost in points/money and the force composition is nothing the same. I'm hoping that by keeping the WK without support that he'll avoid the enemy's focus while there are closer threats and that I'll be able to use models/terrain to hide behind to make the effort spent trying to shoot his horse down beneficial to me even if he suceeds.


As for Fenrir and the Goblins...
The extra courage can only help I figure? More importantly though, it saps the opponent's courage and provides a banner to my hordes. If I can get that into a key position, it may help a little. I figure I may as well test it seeing as I have the model. Even if it isn't that effective, you gotta admit it's a very characteristic part of the force.
Wild Wargs/Giant Spiders is something I've been considering. Depending on whether I make the points to buy enough for them to be worthwhile. No point charging alone into the enemy, and once the main line arrives, the goblins are capable of swarming the enemy.
And I don't know if I will have the 2 trolls. A few posts up, I mentioned that I might try removing the second troll for an extra 17 warriors.



At the moment, I'm liking the second list, because I'm busting to try something with a big monster in it. And trying to resist buying a Fell Beast and starting a Mordor force.

Oh wow, I totally forgot about the Drum also acting as a banner for all fights within 18"...Now I feel kinda silly Yeah, I'd keep it then, that's a very useful object, especially for the squishy Goblins

All good points Cal...nothing more I can really pick up on without playtesting it myself. Let us know how things go Good Luck

Thanks
I'm probably going to go with the second list. At the very least I already have most of the stuff that needs to be painted. I tried a Mordor list using the new Nazgul that I really liked but it would've cost me a few hundred dollars.